In November of 2003, Swinggcat surprised the seduction community with the release of his book "Real World Seduction." Famous in the Seduction community, respected by some of the best pick-up artists world wide, but relatively unknown to the general populous, Swinggcat quickly joined the ranks of gurus such as David DeAngelo with the amazing debut of his eBook which took a new look at the way Seduction and Attraction can be accomplished.
But even with the massive popularity of his book, he's been elusive. Drawing away from posting on mASF, the Speed Seduction List, Cliff's List, and even Mystery's Lounge, Swinggcat has become an enigmatic figure in the seduction community, preferring to let his work speak for itself.
Now, in this exclusive interview, Swinggcat breaks his silence and talks about his background, his development, his theories on seduction and attraction, and what he's planning for the future.
This interview will be spread into 5 parts throughout the course of the week. It should be noted that this is a transcribed text of my conversation, and has been edited by me to make it read better.
Thundercat: So what exactly is your definition of "reality?"
Swinggcat: Reality comes down to sucking people into your story -- this is your life, your story. It comes down to you being the one that defines the underlying meaning of the interaction -meaning, you're the one who decides how they see things. And the 3rd thing is, things are on YOUR terms. When it's your reality, people do things on your terms. And so, let's get back to the first one, which is that this is YOUR story.
Before, I was asking girls lots of questions, I was trying to elicit values, and what I didn't realize is that I was trying to get rapport with them, and in the process, they were sucking me into their reality. It was their story, it was their life, I was a character in THEIR story. And when you allow someone to do that, when you enter a person's reality like that, one of the consequences that ensues is that you end up doing things on their terms. What I've learned to do is ask less questions. I let them elicit MY values. It's all about ME sucking them into MY life's story. They get to come along for the ride, but I'm the star of my movie. I'm not in THEIR movie, their in MY movie. And for that reason, they end up doing things on MY terms.
Rapport is a funny word. In this context, when I make it about me, when I make it about my story and my life, it forces them to relate to me. I throw stuff out there, "This is what I like to do." It forces them to kind-of say "I like that too." And that's a really big part of what I do -sucking people into my reality.
Thundercat: And the second part?
Swinggcat: So the second part is, defining the underlying meaning of the interaction. What most guys do in typical "dating" or "courting" of women, is imploring. They're trying to win the woman over, they're trying to get her approval. If they're impressive, if they show that they're valuable, if they're really nice to her, the woman will accept them, and they'll ultimately get the woman. And one thing I learned a long time ago is that within that frame, that underlying meaning, it's really difficult to win over a woman. I mean, you've been there before Thundy.
Thundercat: Oh yeah.
Swinggcat: It's like, so tough, you know?
Swinggcat: And you know, this seduction stuff is great. You're not spending a lot of money on girls anymore, you got these great routines, these great stories, and you're eliciting their values and making them feel all these great feelings, but at the end of the day, you're still trying to win the woman over. You're trying to get her attracted to you. And it's interesting, because - I'm not gonna mention her name, but the exotic dancer we both know.
Thundercat: Oh yeah. Her.
Swinggcat: When we were talking to her the other night, she said some really sage words. Which were -- she's attracted to guys who don't try and trigger those attraction signals. She's attracted to men to whom it doesn't really matter. And the men who try and trigger those attraction signals, she isn't attracted to. And I think that's right. I think what we have to realize is that attraction is less about how a woman judges you, meaning trying to do all these things so she calls us an attractive person, and more about how we define the underlying meaning of the interaction. It's more about what you do with her mind and body. It's more about getting her so emotionally charged that she is compelled to chase you. She just has to. she's compelled.
When you are trying to win her over, when you are imploring, she is getting YOU to do stuff. She is doing something to YOUR mind and body, YOU'RE becoming attracted to HER. So doing all this stuff, all this courting stuff, you know, is really good for making yourself attracted to the girl. But it doesn't do much to actually get the girl attracted to you. And so guys ask "How do you get the girl attracted to you?" The answer is: You have to give up that mindset all together. You gotta think of it in terms of "It doesn't really matter." You're gonna do stuff on your terms, and you're gonna make her prove to you that she's attractive. That will ultimately get women attracted to you. But you can't even think about it in terms of trying to get them attracted to you, or you're back in the old way of thinking.
Thundercat: It's like a Catch-22.
Swinggcat: It is. It really is.
Thundercat: Every system has its drawbacks.
Swinggcat: That's right. I mean, it reminds me of Adam the Natural. You know, to Adam the Natural, it doesn't really matter. If a girl doesn't impress him "Buh-bye!" And I mean, the thing about it is, we've talked about this before, he loses a lot of girls. And it's like "Oh, if he was a LITTLE bit more interesting, a little bit more interested in her, he'd get so many more girls." But then he'd cease to be in that frame. He'd cease to define the whole interaction in that way. It works because he truly doesn't care. There's a Zen to it, there really is. So that's terribly important.
But the other thing is to always be conscious of where you are in the interaction and how it's being defined, because the reality is women WILL test us. Women test us all the time. Or they do things to kind-of get control of the interaction, and what I mean is they try and define the underlying meaning of the interaction as YOU chasing THEM. And, often times we do a lot of great stuff when we really aren't into a girl, and they start chasing us. For instance, maybe you're in a bar, and you're teasing this girl, you're giving her a hard time, she's chasing you. and then she says to you "Oh, we could never get together because I have a boyfriend." And she might be saying this for numerous reasons, but it's a test. And all a test is, is a behavior that she does, in which you react to it, and she judges your reaction to it. Whenever she's judging you in any way, it's a test. She might do so inadvertently. Maybe she's scared, and she says "I have a boyfriend," because she's just so attracted to you.
Swinggcat: But the fact of the matter is, she says "I have a boyfriend," she just says it out of nowhere, right? You're slammed dead in your tracks, and you say to her something like "I'm better than him," or "I'm funnier than him." And you start qualifying yourself to her. You start trying to prove to her that you're worthy. Now who's chasing who? You're chasing her and she's going to judge that because she wants a man who's the prize. When she's the prize, you cease to be the prize. So, is the right way to respond to it is not to qualify yourself at all? Some people might even say "Say Nothing." I think both are wrong. I think there's another way of thinking. And what I think what you can do, is you can reframe, or redefine the underlying meaning of what she just said.
So she says "I have a boyfriend," and that's a barrier. That's a barrier that's in the way of you getting into her pants, it's saying you want her, and you can redefine it as a benefit, as something where she's trying to prove how worthy she is to you. She says something like "I have a boyfriend," and you say "Good. He can bring us breakfast in the morning. And the orange juice he brings us better be fresh or he's getting clubbed."
Swinggcat: And it's like, right there, you've just totally changed the interaction. It's just absolutely transformed. I mean, not only are you the prize and she's chasing you trying to impress you, but if she really did have a boyfriend, you just made him a complete tool. (Laughs) He works for you, now.
Thundercat: Oh, that's so evil! So evil.
Swinggcat: But women do this to us allllllll the time. I mean, you know, it's like a godsend when a guy FINALLY gets something right, and he's on the right track, and then women will say something and the guy will fuck it all up. So we're only really using their medicine back on them.
Thundercat: In fact, you say a lot of the stuff you develop actually comes from your interactions with women, right?
Swinggcat: It comes from women, and whereas most men who think, I don't know, if someone did this to them, it would be evil. But when you do it to women, they interpret it as "playful banter." Whenever you set up, and I'm just going to reiterate this one more time, whenever you set up the underlying meaning of the interaction as you are the prize, that forces them to do things on your terms. That forces them to do stuff to ultimately get your approval, to chase you, and when they're chasing you, you're doing something to their mind and body, in other words, they're displaying attraction. And if they display the behaviors of attraction, they are, in fact, ATTRACTED to you.
They might justify it in their minds a million different ways. In fact they might look at you and say "Oh, you're not the sort of guy I'm attracted to." By the way, that's another shit test, but the reality is the more you're not the type of guy they're attracted to, the more they chase you. The more you've got them. The more the attraction is there. And that's really the first stage in this whole process. I mean, the next stage that I think is important is that you have to make them comfortable acting on these feelings.
Thundercat: And how do you do that?
Swinggcat: That's an interesting thing, and it's something that I've been thinking a lot about lately. I think when you set yourself up as being the prize, the one who's chased in the interaction, you're making yourself a bit superior to the girl. And that's great, that's really good. But a lot of times that can be a bit intimidating for a girl. If you look at a lot of times who women choose for long term lovers, or boyfriends, it's interesting because sometimes those guys are not very attractive. Why do women pick those guys? Because they feel comfortable with them. They feel comfortable with the idea of walking all over them. Most women are insecure, and they need to do that.
On the other hand a lot of times they have affairs with the guy they have that unbridled passion for, the guys who are the prize, that make the woman chase them. So you need to find a happy medium. You need to be that guy that they chase, but you also want to do things that make them feel comfortable, and what you want to do is if you're in the superior position, and I'm not gonna get too into this, but you want to do something that slightly lowers yourself to the girl. You want to, even if it's in a subtle way, give her some form of validation. And this doesn't mean "Oh my God, you are SO beautiful!" or something like that. I mean, something as simple as asking a girl what a certain word means, or sometimes if a girl is really intimidated by my intellect, I might I might say something like "You're very, very bright." And then change the subject, and then tease her about maybe not remembering something. So I'm giving her a taste of that validation and rising her maybe a little above me for a second, and then I'm switching it around. And even if I reverse it again and go back to the guy she's chasing, it recontextualizes the whole interaction between her and I, and ultimately it makes her comfortable with the idea of having sex with me. And that's all I have to do.
Thundercat: Now, let me touch on something of yours which I find fascinating, which is the concept of "tension loops." In you're book, you talk about "open loops." But in your recent newsletters, you've kind of amended that to cover tension loops. Can you explain the difference between the two and how you made that transition?
Swinggcat: Well, it's interesting. Back when I was studying NLP and Hypnosis, they had this concept of an "open loop." And an open loop is simply an untold story. It's like, if you see a movie and they don't tell you something, you have to see the sequel to see what happened -that's an open loop. I would tell girls "Oh, I noticed something about you, but I'm not going to tell you yet, because first I'm going to tell you something else." And then later in the conversation they come back to it. It was extremely powerful. These open loops are what really saved my ass in bars, because doing bars can be rough, especially when you're first starting out and you're approaching these girls, and it's like if you don't captivate them within the first couple seconds, they're just like, you know, "Later LOSER!"
Thundercat: Yeah, they're looking for the next shiny thing as, you know, TD says.
Swinggcat: But regardless, we're talking about the concept of open loops. I mean, it can be tough when you're in a bar, and if you don't intrigue a girl within a couple seconds, she's onto the guy behind you. So, I mean, the great thing about an open loop is, you talk about something, she might be interested, and before her interest in you plummets, you say something like "Oh, I know something about you." And she says "What?" And you say "Oh, nothing. I'll tell you later." And she's wondering what it is. And by you not telling her, instead of you trying to tell her a bunch of stuff hoping that she'll be impressed by, by you NOT telling her, her interest actually grows. She wants to know what it is. And she begins to go from you trying to impress her, to her trying to chase you because you have something of value to her. So that's when I first started using the whole concept of the open loops.
But over time, I realized there was a more all encompassing or fundamental psychological concept going on there. It wasn't that I didn't tell them something that actually drove them to want to know what it was, it's that I left something unresolved. And not only could I do this with unfinished stories, but I could do it with. for instance telling a girl something like "I hate you." And since as human beings, we have an instinct to want people to like us, they have this kind-of internal yearning to absolve that tension. And this would actually cause them to try and get resolution with me. And the more that I resisted, the more they would try.
I started thinking about this, and I noticed as I started building tension within these girls, I
started getting them chasing me. Now, at first I would do stuff like tell a girl I hated her, and they would try and make friends with me, but I wouldn't make friends with them. And usually they'd get pretty angry, and, you know, that'd kind-of be the end.
But what I realized is there was something going on there, even though I was fucking up, I was doing something really interesting, and it was similar to when you watch a movie, or there's a show on TV, and maybe you're watching a soap opera and there's two characters that have this tension between them. There's like this war going between those two characters, and you want to see the next episode, not just because you're curious about what happens, but you want there to be some resolution to it. Emotionally, you need some sort of resolution.
Thundercat: Its kind-of like that show "Moonlighting."
Swinggcat: Yeah, exactly. And what I did ultimately is thought about that. I thought about it long and hard, and started creating that tension like I would before, saying something like "I hate you." But then what I would do is at the point where the rubber band was just about to break, I'd bring some sort of resolution to it. I might say something like "I hate you." And she's thinking "Oh my god, this guy is such an ass hole!" But then I'd say something like "You know, the reason I hate you is because when I was in grammar school, there was a girl, Miranda, who used to always beat me at hot hands. And you remind me of her. And you just make that jealousy inside of me just rage. So I want to see something... I want to see how you are at hot hands."
And so then basically I'd beat them at the game, and then I'd say "You know what? I like you now" then give them a hug. And so that would bring resolution to what I said before, and because I was pushing them away, and the human kind-of instinct is to make friends, that would actually bring them very close to me, because I would bring resolution to the tension.
But I wouldn't stop there. I would create the tension all over again by saying "You know what? Now I like you, because. you really stink at hot hands." And then maybe go from hugging them to pushing them away from me. And build that tension back up, and bring resolution to it. Build it up, bring resolution to it. And what I'm doing by kind-of building this tension and pushing them away from me, is psychically, when you push someone away, they begin to lean into you. And what that does is it displays the behavior of me being the prize, and them trying to chase me.
In the last part of this interview, Swinggcat talks about mistakes most guys make with women, why he felt compelled to write his book, and what's in store for his future. You can find out more about Swinggcat, and buy his book Real World Seduction, at his website www. realworldseduction.com.
Posted by Thundercat on 02/13/2004 | Permalink | Comments (2) | TrackBack
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